39. A writer who needs to market herself
How do you sell a book to a publisher without an audience? You can’t. 📖 Valentina is a freelance journalist that that is writing a book, but need help promoting. Phil and Lauren help tackle how to promote a book through a visual platform and sharing more of yourself to your audience through written and visual storytelling.
Episode transcription
Phil
Welcome to Brand Therapy, the podcast where we help all kinds of people with some branding challenges, and work through it. That's what we do, right? Yeah. What a concise introduction. I try my best. I try my best and when we say it every single time, so I just try and switch it up, chop it in half every time. This episode, this podcast is the fun one. Today we're talking to an author who has a very real challenge. The challenge being not only do you have to create a great story, but you also have to bring an audience to the table. And I love, cause I talk about this and tell people that this is the reality of it. And Valentina, our guest today confirms that this is the case. Yeah. Like as if writing a book as it hard enough to write a book and then also have to prove that you've got an audience. So we worked through that with Valentina today. It's a good episode. It's a good episode because I think too, not every industry your job is it obvious how to use a visual platform like Instagram or any social media platform for that matter. So I think that this is going to be useful even if you're not an author. Trying to figure out how you use some of these platforms to show proof of concept. Should we get started? I think we should. Let's dive right into our conversation with Valentina [inaudible]. Hi, I am Valentina. I'm freelance journalist currently based in London, getting my master's in creative nonfiction and hopefully publishing my first book within the next year or two years. Amazing. Have you drafted your book yet or do you know what you're going to write about? Yes, I am about 30 I'm almost at the halfway mark of 60,000 words. Wow. Wow. How exciting. Yeah, nerve wracking and exciting. Yeah. So I know how it used to work with publishing, but I'm curious to know, are you signed, are you writing and then trying to sell it? Do you start selling your book before you've finished it? Like how does that world work? Yeah, I mean it's going gonna. It just depends. That is all personally, it depends on who you are and what you've done before. For me, my situation right now is that I'm in a Master's program specifically to write this book. I've been a freelance journalist for 10 years, so I have a lot under my belt in terms of writing as a career, but I will be looking for representation within the next year. So basically, you know, when I'm, when I have a like six chapters basically that are ready and clean to go out, I'll start querying agents who then fingers crossed. Somebody signs me mean, hey, maybe there'll be a bidding war, who knows? Probably not racially and then yes. So then I would sign with an agent and then they, they do the rest of their work, which is trying to sell the actual book and there is the option to sell. Publish. Of course, it's not a route I am looking to do at all, but I know less people do it nowadays and sometimes a lot of success with it. Yeah. I imagine with fiction it's probably more difficult to find success if you're self publishing. Do you think, I mean, oh, you're writing nonfiction. Sorry, I thought you were in a creative creative fiction. I misheard if you're in a creative nonfiction class. Got It, got it. Okay, cool. Which is some people are confused by that, by that. Yeah. Can you explain? It's a fairly newer Java. By that I mean like at least a decade if not more, but about a decade like in the mainstream and I mean really like you find a lot of memoirs that are in that, that genre. Mine is a memoir. It really is just giving people the ability to be more creative with how they tell their own story. You know? If I want to talk about a day that happened 10 years ago, like I can make up what the weather was like, I can also, I can recreate dialogue as long as it is still getting to the point of what was actually said in a particular conversation. Do you know? Yeah. You're like given the freedom to take creative liberties. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly. Exactly. That's what it is. And so people have been doing this for a long time. It's just that I think that the publishing industry and writers and authors as well wanted to categorize it more so that it could categorize it more clearly, I guess I should say. So that people can say, Oh, well mine is a nonfiction historical nonfiction, and like you know exactly what that means. That means if you say, well, mine is creative nonfiction, like you know what you're getting into and nobody's gonna read it and be disappointed that they find out, oh well Matt wasn't like, how can she prove that that conversation happened? It was when she was five and now she's 35 yeah, Valentino, I trust that you could write a really good book, but as you know, it's not just about writing the book. What are some of the other elements that you have to juggle as part of this project and challenge? Yeah, so it is not just about writing a book anymore. Unfortunately. I think those days are long behind us. And this goes for any sort of self-made slash freelance creative career is not just about what you are doing. It is everything that goes along it that includes promoting yourself as a kind of, as a brand, you know? Um, so Valentina is, I need to, I mean, publishers and agents, I have heard this to the grapevine. I have not had a publisher and agency to, to me directly, but I've heard it from multiple different writers and authors that they have had agents and publishers tell them that they want to, their social media numbers up and they want engagement high [inaudible] so this is the whole new person, social media. I mean, I didn't grow up with it. I am 35, almost 35 to myself and at a bon. Yeah, let's go, let's not, let's not rush this. So the point is, I didn't grow up with social media and even at the beginning of my career I did not have to deal with social media and worry about it. And when it came along, it was very fun and I was like, this is great. I love connecting with people on Facebook, old friends of mine and seeing everybody's pictures on Instagram. That's all really exciting or things stupid. Quit on Twitter. And I enjoyed it until I started to realize that that numbers were staying right. Like getting my engagement off and getting more followers was important too, to how I'm valued as a writer. And that really sort of brought me down for a while and I tried to fight against it and now I'm at this place where, where I would like to be able to embrace it as another part of my job without spending a ton of money, a ton of time, a ton of effort. And I don't know if that's just some, is that like an impossibility where I'm like, oh, I want to put the effort in, but I don't want it to be up. Yeah. I mean you've outlined your challenge. I think a lot of people are gonna relate to and that's the, you can't beat them join them, but then you can't really join them. Yeah, I think unless you really see value in it for yourself. And I relate to this, even though social media is something I typically enjoy and I obviously see the value in it because I've made a business out of it, but at the same time, and Lauren will reaffirm this, but I really, for example, did not like Instagram for a long time cause I found it stressful. I found like it was a lot of pressure to post really high quality visuals. I couldn't figure out how to do that if I'm a terrible photographer. And then it's like I'm putting all this effort into this thing and it's like, do, does this really, should this really get this much effort? But it was a process for me to see value in it and to enjoy the process, if you will. Um, and I think that's where we need to get you to a point where you see the value in building what we would call proof of concept. Your social media is proof of concept. When you go into a publisher, and this is what I often talk about and you've um, you know what you've said really kind of complements this, Eh, not what's been told you directly. But you know, people that are facing this are going into meetings and, and publishers are saying, you know, gone are the days where you just bring a great book and we do the rest. They expect you to sell it. They expect you to be on the ground. Yeah. Maybe they'll give you an advance for the book, but at the same time, that's not like free money. That's almost like alone in a way. So it's, yeah, it is alone. So you've, so we've got to figure out how do we build proof of concept? How do we argue like a lawyer would, that you are the best candidate for this opportunity and you're the one to have a platform to sell it. I mean, I hate the term influencer, but we say it a lot because it's relevant now because these are people who've built an audience around a particular topic or focus, have a captive audience that a lot of times will buy. So that's kind of the challenge that we've outlined that I think is relatable. Lauren, what are your thoughts on this first starters? Well I agree with everything you said, shocker. But I think that the keys really going to be figuring out what your passion could be on social media so that you want to do it regularly. My immediate thought is that you're writing creative nonfiction, it's a memoir. Therefore your social media should be kind of hinting and sort of like, you know, dancing around the memoir topics slightly so that people can start getting to know you and wanting to learn more about you through your soon to be novel. That's my thought. Like curating. I think so. So how far back does your memoir go? Is it covering a certain period of time? Um, is, yeah, I'll go back to even before my birth cause I write about my family as well. And My mother. So I mean, we're talking, it goes back to the 1944 I love it. No, I love it. I love it. And I think if you're going to be exploring the past in that way in your memoir, there's no reason why that exploration couldn't carry over slightly into Instagram, like sharing small stories or asides or things that you're learning about the past or thinking about how your mom's actions in her twenties are echoing your actions now in your thirties you know, things like that. We're talking about Instagram specifically, right? Well, I'm thinking Instagram, Twitter. Basically what I want is I want your exploration, your brain, while you're putting this book together, I want snippets of that on social media in whichever platform feels most inspiring to you. If this of my brain, I'm writing this down right now and you should read dumb, but this is kind of this moment where we hold a mirror in front of you. We're not really doing anything other than holding mirror in front of you saying, Hey, you already know how to tell stories. You're writing a freaking memoir that I just said, memoir, memoir, you know how to tell stories. Now it's time to take inventory of those moments that happen naturally for you and share them in a way that lets other people in. So I have a specific question about this storytelling thing because I did a version of this a while back. I said, okay, my Instagram posts are going to be little mini stories underneath, right? It's not just going to be about the picture. I'm going to write a little something and also work on my hashtags and get the relevant hashtags there and everything. And my engagement did not go up and it got me discouraged and I stopped. How long did you do that for? Not Long, let's say under a month. Hey Dalton. Hi Laura. Do you remember what I made you and everyone on the team do over Christmas break? Take a test. I made you take a test, the Myers Briggs test to be exact. And did you like it? I did. It told me a lot about myself that I didn't know did it really well, that's so funny you say that because you might want to consider the brand audit session that Phil and I actually offers. So that's right. You're listening to kind of like condensed form of the brand audit session through this podcast, but if you're shy or if you want something a bit more in depth, this is a service that Phil and I offer privately, privately smart gonna be broadcasted across the Internet to millions and millions of people. Oh my God. I hope we, I hope millions of people listen to this. Anyway. If you're interested in a brand audit session of your own, it's really simple. Just visit Phil pallen.expert/therapy and you will get how much of a discount? A whole 15%. Yeah. 15 not five zero 15 I you can do with that 15% that you save. You can do so many things with that you could buy like, like how many you could buy like like 75 lattes, 75 latte. I don't actually know. I just said, I'm like bad at math on the spot. Groceries, you could buy Starbucks multiple times and you'll have a clear direction of your brand. Just like a Myers Briggs test will give you for your personality and what you'll do to celebrate when you get that brand with the 15% that you saved, you can go to happy hour. Yup. You can go get tacos. There's just endless possibilities. Endless. Okay, well anyway, I hope people take us off on the up on that special offer. Let's get back to the show. And my engagement did not go up and it got me discouraged and I stopped. How long did you do that for? Not Long, let's say under a month. Yeah. Let's say like probably about under a dozen posts. Got It. So I think, and I could tell by your kind of sheepish answer about how long it took, and this is where persistence comes in. So with any social effort you need to remember that it's not about the performance of a single post, it's about setting up almost a scientific playground so that you can experiment with posts and figure out what people like best. That's really what it comes down to is testing a variety of posts so that you can measure performance that way. Okay. Okay. So if, if you were trying stories and stories wasn't working then maybe a quote or maybe just a few words in almost a poetic type way. Maybe experimenting with you know, historical black and white photos or regramming old photos that feel nostalgic and tagging the like crediting the original brand that that photo came from. I would definitely recommend like testing a variety of posts, converting your Instagram account into a business profile. It's really easy to do. You just need to create a Facebook page and you can make it private and if you convert it to a business profile, then you have a whole world of analytics to see how your posts are doing. Uh Huh. Yeah, I did go to business for a while and then I didn't like it. And I left it. Yeah, it's definitely more for marketers. But like we're saying, you know, if you're a writer, you've Kinda gotta be a marketer too. So, and I know it, it is discouraging because especially if you're being vulnerable in those posts, it doesn't feel very nice for there to be minimal response. But I think to feel like you have a bit more control in this situation, I would jot down a variety of posts that you could experiment with, whether it's a quote card with a where the image is literally a quote. If it's a throwback with historical photos of your family or a certain era or a time period, um, that would work [inaudible] grams. So you could, you know, the, I would just basically make a list of all of them and come up with a rough system so that doesn't feel too sporadic and, and just do that experiment for about, I dunno, what would you say fell three months. Yeah. I think three months is a good campaign period. You want to constantly be asking yourself, if someone lands on this page, why are they going to follow me? Are the visuals really good? Are the captions really good in terms of the story that they're telling? I think that one for you is more important as a writer. How do all of these elements work together? Almost like a mood board, a visual mood board, but in the way of copy, like Lauren, Lauren reads more than I do. I don't actually read that much Shakur. I've a very short attention span. But Lauren, do you follow authors on Instagram? Do you know of any that are doing interesting things? I like Roxanne gay the most on Instagram. Do you follow her? I do, yeah. And what I like about her is like you kind of, when you read her posts it feels almost like you're in, you know, like it feels like you're her friend and she's being like real with you. Like there's one post I was just scrolling through just now and she was talking about how she just had to, she just, um, like photographed at a photo shoot and she said, stylists don't know how to like pull for fat people because there's nothing to pull. And then you have to explain that the clothes they pulled won't fit. And I think like that kind of vulnerability is really refreshing. The photos, not even that like aesthetically that great, but I just like, I like how real she is. Like that's what I really appreciate and I think that that, especially if you're in the mode of like writing and exploring your past and your family, like that kind of honesty is going to come naturally to you. Okay, what about these? These things are good. I'm like, okay, cool. I'm going to choose, you know, one format essentially and then and to do that for three months. Is there any point where you think that people like me in this similar position to me should be spending money on social media? It's a very good question. In fact, my advice today might be different than what I would have said even a few weeks ago. I very recently have started boosting every post that I post on Instagram for $10 $5 a day over two days. So I'm actually posting less on Instagram than I used to and I'm putting more effort into every single individual feed post on Instagram. So I used to aspire to post six times a week and take one day off. And I honestly can't keep up with it cause I, that'd be full time. But you know, because it's, it's the visual, the visual has to look good. It's the caption, the caption has to be thoughtful. Hashtag why couldn't I couldn't. And I was almost trying to teach it and give people a goal to work towards and I couldn't even do it myself. So I maybe post three times a week if I'm on fire that week. But when I do, a lot of thought goes into it and I will sometimes spend half an hour to 45 minutes just picking hashtags and researching hashtags that are between 15,000 and 150,000 total posts under that Hashtag is typically the recommendation. But I'm giving you an example now, so less pressure on quantity and I'd say more quality now on your, on your feed. So I have found that boosting. So yes, I spend $30 a week on boosting my posts, but Instagram is inevitably heading in the direction that Facebook did a few years ago where we went from getting away with posts that we would just post and not boost. And now, I mean, I think it's a good investment by boosting $10 not $5 a day, over two days. I will sometimes nearly double the amount of likes I get. And I get messages from people that say, wow, I love that logo you designed. And that's the leading, you know, that's the kind of result I'd get if I spent money on ad words, which would cost more or spin ads on Linkedin, which could cost way more. So for me, it's a good investment and I put effort into this so that when people land there, they get a sense of who I am, why people should care and volunteer. As you kind of embark on this adjusted strategy, I almost want people to land on your Instagram, get a little visual, look into your diary or into your mind, into your process, into the way that you see opportunities for stories to be told. That's your craft and that's your magic and you've got to kind of figure out how do we show that on Instagram, which is a visual platform. So all of these elements will start to work together. It's not overnight, so it's not overnight and it's not even one month. It might not even be three months. But don't put so much pressure on yourself and try and find a way to enjoy the process I think is the advice I would give, which is something I have found actually only very recently. That's good to know. Can I, can I ask another question? Sure, sure. Okay. The cause you mentioned it just before and it made me think about the Hashtag thing. Um, I believe it, what 30 you can do 30 hashtags on a post. Like, and that includes either in the posts or in the comments. Right. And how you said something about a number before, like basically what is the Hashtag game? I know what a Hashtag is obviously, but how do you win the Hashtag game? Yeah, it's a good question. Uh, essentially you have up to, as you said, 30 hashtags in the comment or in the post, I believe as Lauren said, it's per day, but the per day thing doesn't really matter because your post, the hashtags are really most effective in the first honestly hour, two hours, three hours, up to 24 hours that you post it. Beyond that, they're not really useful. By adding a Hashtag to a post, it makes your posts discoverable under that specific Hashtag. Now I give the range if you're trying to choose hashtags, Hashtag happy is not really a good one because there's going to be millions and millions of posts, but something that is between 15,000 total posts and 150,000 total posts is typically a good range. It's harder to rank in 150,000 than it is in 15,000 and what I mean by rank is that when you click on those Hashtags, your content is organized into two categories, top posts, which are the top nine that you'll see on the grid that people have posted in there, top based on engagement and likes. And then you'll see most recent and most recent obviously populates with what is most recently posted with that Hashtag and it changes every second. That's how the game works. So keep it between 15,000 and 150,000 and if you're really savvy within 24 hours of posting that post, click those hashtags and see if you ranked in the top nine. Typically you can tell that in a few after you post it within the first 24 hours. So that's the game. Great. Thank you. I know we've really focused on Instagram here. Is there, I mean is Twitter still relevant? I think it is. I think it is, but I think Twitter's relevant from like a communication standpoint. So it's really, it's really challenging to just tweet something and have it be retweeted or go viral or even be seen. So I think for you it would make more sense to use Twitter as like a conversation starter or to tweet other writers that you admire to tweet even publications who admire and use it more that way. Yeah. Do you agree, Phil? What do you think? We haven't talked about Twitter. You and I haven't. We talked about Twitter for awhile, to be honest, I don't have a good answer. Yeah, I don't have a good answer for this yet. I mean, we've been super hyped up on Twitter over the years, but I think Twitter has changed. It's evolving and I don't actually, I'm kind of, I'm, I'm open for the universe to tell me how this platform is working for people and it's actually something I'm researching now so that I can have a better stance on it. So I actually don't have the answer that question right now. I can't answer confidently this platform, but it's something that I'm in the middle of researching, trying to understand. For 2018 2019 you know, I don't have a good answer for it yet. I will, but I don't have it yet. And waiting with bated. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. What a great little conversation. I feel good about this new direction. I know we've talked a lot about Instagram as we often do on this podcast, but it's one of those platforms that strategies that we talk about for this platform often are directly applicable to others. As long as you remember, do something different on every platform so that people are enticed to follow you on each platform. How are you feeling about all this? So in terms of what we talked about, yes, I feel really good. I think this will be like their actionable steps, right? Like, I'm leaving this with actionable steps and I think anybody who brought up something, the reason I did this and the effort, like we have this idea in the first place is because they said, oh, all these other up and coming authors are saying that they're publishers and agents want their numbers up and they're all coming to these Facebook groups where we get to grace to each other and you'd be like, oh my God, I can't do this as well as pour my heart out onto the page. And any one of those authors who listened to this, I think we'll get as much out of it as I did. Beautiful. Well thank you for letting us kind of go with the flow and discover a, an exciting direction for you and you'll have to report back on how all of this goes. Yeah, same. Well, no thank you. There's so much. That was really helpful. It's our pleasure and I look forward to seeing you in London very soon. Yay. Thank you Valentino for being so open and going with the flow and, and, um, having this new direction. We appreciate you being on brand therapy. Thank you so much for me. Okay. Valentina, I feel good about that new direction. I think it's interesting that you mentioned Roxanne Gay, cause you know, I don't know anything about authors, but I do know who she is because I saw her interview Michelle Obama had inbound. You did and you want to know something embarrassing. She came out on stage and I had no idea who she was. Oh, well I mean in your defense you don't often see writers, you would probably recognize her name, right? Kinda God. But I think it's hard, right? Authors typically pour themselves into a story, into an idea and then some of them, a lot of them are hesitant to kind of position themselves. But as Valentina, you know, as a personal brand and then, uh, as Valentina said, now you have to, they expect you to not only have a great story, but you need to have an army, an audience of people, a group of people that care. Can you believe that? Like, I mean, I dunno, I, it makes sense, but it's also kind of sad for someone who just wants to write and then and pour themselves into their craft and then they have to think about this whole other complicated world. I don't know. While we should be grateful because it keeps us employed. Can you believe that for Valentina? I mean a no, I feel good about that. That's a really good direction for her. We'd love to know what you think. What do you think about our conversation? Find us on social media #brandtherapy. I'm @philpallen.
Lauren
I'm @thelaurenmoore
Phil
And if you've taken the time to listen to this episode, then you should just take a few extra seconds to let us know what you think. Send us a tweet, find us on Instagram. Let's continue the conversation. And if you enjoyed it, make sure you visit the iTunes store or the podcast store or whatever it's called and leave us a review that helps other people discover this so they can learn and listen as well. We'll be back next week with a brand new episode. As you know, we do right here on Brand Therapy. Look forward to it.
Lauren:
Bye.
