91. How do you deal with a copycat?
Copycat got your tongue? 😼 We've all experienced copycats in our lives, and copycats in branding are no exception. In this one-on-one episode, hosts Phil and Lauren dish on their experiences with copycats over the years. The two discuss when it's worth ignoring, when it's worth confronting, and when serious action is needed to defend your work. If you're a creative or just plain passionate about promoting your brand, you'll love this episode!
Episode transcription
Phil:
Before we dive right into this episode, I wanted to let you know about an awesome freebie we just created, a shot list template. I am a big fan of good photography for any brand and shot lists are basically the critical planning steps for any photography process. I like to think of a shot list as a way to capture your essence for the photographer. The photographer's job is to make sure you look like you and your job is to give them the stage so that you can shine. You're probably investing good money into your photos, so you want to make sure that you're capturing every element of your brand while you've got the time with them. Unless you have a history with your photographer, they likely don't know much about you so a shortlist is a great way to get them up to speed. This template will help you lay it all out location actions, props and so much more. Check it out for free at http://philp.al/shotlist and take all the guesswork away for planning that photoshoot. Now onto the show.
Phil
Hello, and welcome to Brand Therapy. I'm Phil.
Lauren
And I'm Lauren.
Phil
And this is the podcast where we help you position, build and promote your brand. Oh, honey, that's what we're doing today. We do it every day, but this is Episode 91 on Brand Therapy. Can you believe that Lauren Moore? 91 .
Lauren
It's shocking. It feels like we've been doing this podcast for an eternity but it also feels like we just started it.
Phil
We're almost at 100 episodes. Do you know for sure that's gonna be a big celebration. I don't know how, but it will.
Lauren
I was looking in Asana and I saw episode one hundred on the horizon and I thought to myself, I'm gonna need to ask Phil in advance what he has cooking for this episode because otherwise it's going to be a last minute creative scramble.
Phil
Completely. You know, I’ll concoct my big celebration ideas about hmm if you're lucky six hours prior, we need to do this. We need to do this. Pull audio for your favorite highlight episodes.
Lauren:
Let's do a highlight episode. Find them quick. Igor, help! We need you to edit this.
Phil:
Yes. well listen. So we said that, you know, when we did a little intro we said position your brand, build your brand, promote your brand. Today is actually a slightly different focus from what you might expect brand strategists to be talking about.
This topic today is a hot one. It's inspired by some real live events, things that have happened to us this year. Some things have flattered us, some things have pissed us off. And other things have actually prompted us to take nearly legal action. And I think for some people definitely legal action. We have been lucky to not have have to cross that bridge happily, ever.
Lauren
No.
Phil
No, it's come close.
Lauren:
Threatened.
Phil
We've threatened. Yes, of course, it's not a not a lot.
Lauren
Not a lot. No, we're lucky.
Phil
We're lucky. But it is a risk. I mean, there's always risk in business. And even when business is fun, we love our jobs. We love to create beautiful brands. We love to launch brands and see people grow and make lots of money. There's risk involved. And sometimes, if you have a lawyer or you have someone involved with your business, you can forecast what those risks are. And that's always a good thing to do. But sometimes you have to react to situations that happen. And hopefully, some of you listening will relate to this idea of people ripping you off, copycats. That's the topic on today's agenda.
Lauren
When you propose this, I was thrilled, but also i'm a little nervous because you're right. We have gone through copycat experiences of really varying degrees of severity over the past, you know, nine, whatever years of working in branding, but I don't know maybe we'll kind of do a little dishing this episode with some specifics.
Phil
Let's dish and I will say over the years people have come to me to get my opinion on this issue. I think due to the nature of what we do is focus on design is focused on art. Sometimes before people react, be it a client or someone who follows on social media, I've had instances more than once where people have messaged me, and it's almost like before they react, they're wanting to know how I would react or how I should advise them to react in these cases?
This is a good question. Let this be the first topic of discussion on this topic of copycat right. When is the appropriate moment to be flattered? When is the appropriate moment to be pissed off? When is the appropriate moment to take legal action? Those are our three tunnels that we can go through.
Lauren
Unfortunately, with how I'm wired, I'm always going to be pissed off. But, I don't. But I do recognize that there is like flattery, oftentimes in someone getting very strong inspiration from the creative work that you've done. I think before even asking which tunnel you belong in, I always try to put myself in the shoes of the copycat and think why, like what motivated this copycat incident and then kind of try to work backwards from there. If the copycat incident is done from a really negative place, like for personal gain, or for, I don't know, exploitation or like out of a competitive thing, then that'll really determine how I react. If it's just like innocent, and just outright inspiration, then that's when I have to really take a step back and think, okay, maybe I should be flattered.
Phil
Yes. You and I react a little bit differently in these cases, I'd say that I'm probably a little bit nicer. Maybe in some of these cases in terms of flattery. I think it makes you and yeah, as you think about the time that's gone into creating something creative. I mean, that's the nature of our business. For me. I think that in some instances and applications, I am a teacher, an instructor, an educator of sorts, right. And so when I see someone rip off something I've done, it could be a project page layout, it could be awesome. website homepage. This is different from a blatant copy, we'll get to the hat. Well, different than a blade and actually a website duplication. Okay, yeah. So you know what's coming down? This? Yeah, I just show an agenda.
Lauren
You ask yourself, is the person trying to learn something? I think that's what goes through your head is like, are they taking strong reference for my work because they're trying something new and they're trying to learn something themselves? And if so, that's fine. I think that's what's you think.
Phil
In some cases, let's say it's a worksheet or it's something that I've created for one of my courses, even for example, let's say someone is inspired by how I do things in my online course. Especially if it's a client power to you, if I've, if I've given you instruction on how to go and do it, then you're allowed to, you're allowed to follow that as closely as you want.
It becomes problematic when someone is making money off of something that I own. I think that's, that's, that's where it becomes problematic if someone is, for example, packaging up something in something they sell that I obviously made becomes problematic if I wasn't hired to make that, for them to be able to sell it in the first place.
Lauren
That's the key.
Phil
Which comes back to communication. Yeah, you know, you need to be communicating what's happening, you need to be upfront about that and always take precaution. You know, a lot of this communication, but when it comes to some of those things. I don't get insulted if someone has been very seriously, strongly inspired by something I've made, because I think they probably view me as a leader or as an expert or someone who's doing it the best way or doing it well, let's say and chances are if they inject their own style and you need a little bit of their own creativity or, you know, perspective into what they make, it's going to look different anyways. And it's for a completely different audience. So I'm not normally super upset. I normally think, wow, of all the people they pick to copy, or be strongly inspired. As we say all the time. Don't copy anyone, but be strongly inspired by what others are doing well, if people if people choose me, it says like lots of other options of people that they could be strongly inspired by that I take that as a form of flattery. So that's when I'm flattered.
Lauren:
Great, a very noble position to take.
Phil
I think, maybe because I also am in the position of having to create something out of nothing. And I remember creating my first worksheet, I remember creating, I think back to looking at my brand board that our designer costume made for me and me going okay, how do I, you know, work within some of the parameters I have. Like a Google Doc, you're limited to Google fonts. For example, you know, headers footers in Microsoft Word like you, you know, you have to be aware of some of these constraints. So I guess I like to relate to the creative standpoint of how I create something that, you know, we're always looking for shortcuts. I mean that in a positive way, but sometimes the shortcut is too short. Because that's yeah, off.
Lauren
It's interesting. I can't remember where I heard this, but, but I remember reading or hearing that there's no such thing as a truly original idea. And I believe that like, I think it's part of why there's no such thing as a bad idea in a brainstorm because it's a launching point that can get you to something greater and nothing's truly, truly original. And I do remember one time where we were developing a brand identity with a client in events, and we created a logo mark and concept and we're really close to wrapping it. And then he found something kind of similar online and was like, what do you think about this? Isn't this kind of a big problem because the logo mark was similar. And so it makes me actually think that that Being similar to seeing something similar out there is okay. Because I think that's just part of the creative process as long as you put your own spin on things, like it's not necessarily a bad thing to be similar. What is bad is if the intent behind it is a negative one, I think that's that's sort of the difference for me.
Phil
Completely, I can think of three instances where we've designed a modern brand, that you can find other things that look and feel similar, at least to the mark, but when you start to look at all the brand elements, so color, typography, all of those elements, when those are all kind of coming into play, it doesn't look the same. But particularly when you're designing a logo mark and you're going for something minimalist, you are going to find it's just like there's only so many things you can do. Yeah, right. So you will find similarities, you shouldn't find an exact rip off. That means you should probably go back to the, the, you know, the drawing board. But again, it's a conversation. It's not something to get super angry about right away. If it's a creative discussion, you want to think about that. And if you're working with a designer or a branding team, you know that is experienced, they're going to be wanting the best for you. There it comes back to your idea of intent, they’re going to be wanting the best for you. So they're going to be wanting to be actively involved with making sure that what you create is unique and special and working for you to grow your business.
Lauren:
Definitely, definitely. So okay, so I think that's when we are flattered.
Phil
The first thing is like when to be flattered. Now we're crossing the bridge into when to be pissed off.
Lauren
Ugh. So I get I get really really mad when someone completely steals something that requires a lot of time. A lot of thought, a lot of testing to arrive where you are, and then basically sells it as their own. That really, really bothers me.
Phil
Well, you're angered by essentially laziness.
Lauren
I'm angered by laziness. I'm also angered by a disservice. This is a double whammy for me because not only are you stealing something that's not yours and turning around and making money off of it, but you're also selling something that really shouldn't be that valuable since you stole it in the first place. So anyway, I guess. I guess I have a lot of complex feelings about this. How about you?
Phil
Yeah, when someone's making money off of something that I've paid money or spent time on something to make it, makes me really angry. I just thought of a good example of this. I You’re gonna remember it the minute I tell you.
Lauren
What is it?
Phil:
Do you remember when a social media channel that's actually not doing nearly as well as it once was, decided to take my branded icon of Santa Monica and use it for their location filter for LA Snapchat. So one day, I'm on Snapchat and I go to add my cool LA little location filter, and I'm scrolling through and what do I see? My little ferris wheel of Santa Monica that I've used as my LA icon that I had custom designed. I had Kostya design it for me. They had literally really lifted it, not one thing was modified but actually a hand and it looks so ugly hand wrote Los Angeles at the side of the Ferris wheel in a different weight of line, which just is the icing on this very sour cake.
Lauren
Instagram would have never done that, never.
Phil
And you know what's even more disappointing, I contacted them about this. I was like you don't have permission to use this. This is mine. I'll show you I have proof. They just didn't even like there was no, again, look how this comes back to communication.
Lauren
Intended communication. There was no way to actually have a dialogue about that with them. It took days I mean, I guess now we realize they had bigger issues to worry about at the time. But that that really pissed me off is when someone took it out of laziness. Instead of like you've got a team like go have someone designed something original.
Lauren
Yeah. Great, great example.
Phil:
I'm glad about that example.
Lauren
I guess I know we're both thinking of more and more things.
Phil
No, but when you stop and think about it, it's actually wild how many times it's happened, but I guess, due to the nature of what we do, it's bound to happen. Okay, any other examples for when you're pissed off?
Lauren
I mean, just, it's just my own my own head. It's not really I don't think that when I get mad at like warrants being mad, honestly, I think I think I do, I do get kind of pissed off when someone steals a system that's been developed or a method of working that's been developed and tested and worked on and they just take it for themselves and use it on their own clients that really irks me because that's, that's like taking a signature experience from, I don't know a hotel or from a restaurant and using it at your own hotel or restaurant. That's kind of how I see it.
Phil
Do you believe the argument that imitators can never do it as well as the originators?
Lauren
Yeah, I do. But I do think it also cheapens the originator's idea.
Phil
Which is what makes you angry.
Lauren
Yes.
Phil
Again, different if you're taking something and implementing it because you've read it on a blog post of ours or you've learned it in a course that you paid for. Very different than being sneaky and ripping something off because you're too lazy to go and do it yourself.
Lauren
Yeah, I guess for me, it all comes down to laziness.
Phil
Do you have advice for someone that wants to make sure they don't accidentally copy something?
Lauren
Well, I think that it's always important to figure out your own spin on things and I also think it's really important to know down in your core, what you think is better, and what you think could improve an original concept. So for example, let's say we saw an Instagram template that we really, really loved and wanted to be strongly inspired by, I think it's okay to first replicate what you've seen, so that you can get the bones of it and get the layout of it and create and apply your own thoughts and copy and images to it. I think that's fine. But I think if you are stealing, an artist, for example, you need to also ask yourself, okay, so now I've got this, how can I make it even better. What's lacking here? I think it's your responsibility to like, contribute to what you've been strongly inspired by and kind of mentality instead of just outright ripping it off and swapping out the colors and fonts.
Phil
When in doubt, have more than one strong source of inspiration. Yes, I would say if you've only got one thing that strongly inspires you, then go back out to the pond and grab two more fish, you know, and then put those three fish in a row to paint your own fish. I don't know what kind of analogy that is, but go to Pinterest and find more examples or go to a great website that I love for designers called Behance. That's, you know, again, don't copy anyone but we would now one step further in defining what it means to be strongly inspired, have at least two, three or more sources of inspiration, so you can identify like this about this. I like this, about this. I like this, about this, and following your own intuition and belief. I like my own ideas or I like this about myself and now you marry all of those two.
Lauren
Yeah, you bring up a good and kind of interesting point. Do you think that people imitate because they lack confidence or vision for themselves?
Phil:
Yes. I do. So it could be laziness, it could be that, it could be lacking confidence in their own process or their own ideas. It could also be a combination of both. It could be a lack of time, right? Maybe it's not they're lazy, but maybe they've got other priorities, so they need you to know, they got to hit a deadline. I think it's really important, especially now, it's easier than ever before to find someone who copies something you've made. What a perfect segue into where I'm going next, which is the ultimate warning of someone losing their job in my organization, because they outright lazy, copied something of ours. And I'll tell you how we found out This is where we cross the bridge the final bridge from flattery to pissed off to threatening legal action. (You can't see my finger but I'm pointing) I had someone working for me, who no longer works for me, duplicate a client website, changed the colors and a few elements but even kept the same copy that you wrote, Lauren, and spent a lot of time on the phone with the client that the client paid for. They made bare minimum changes, duplicated a website and I mean, I don't mean rebuild it with two websites up on the screen, I mean, click a button in Squarespace that's logged into my account that says duplicate website and get this… are you ready for the icing on the cake? They didn't even have the common sense to change the contact email address on the contact form. So when this website went live, the first website inquiry went to my client who got the original and paid for the original design and paid a lot of money, they then went thought why am I receiving an inquiry about nursing something? Okay receiving a message about a stillbirth. She thought it was spam or she thought someone was trying to trick her. Then goes to the website for the person whose message this was intended, and sees her exact website with different colors.
This happened this year. And I'll tell you, we acted on that one fast, and that person was out of our business. And luckily, if you use a tool like LastPass, they should sponsor our podcast. Use it too. Like Last pass, we were able to kick her out, change passwords and be you know, safe and secure about it and then communicate with the client. Thankfully, in this case, she was super understanding the client and felt really bad that this was something we had to deal with. And boy, did we deal with it.
Lauren
Yeah, I freaking hate her. She won't ever see this, if it's, she's looking at if anyone's watching this on the social media version, because I've blocked her literally everywhere. I never want her in my life, again.
Phil:
I think it's important to just bring up the fact that it does happen and it was quite recently, it died. It takes a lot of time to deal with reactively which there are always going to be cases right especially as businesses are growing, you're looking more people into what you're doing. You yourself are growing as a brand and people are like, wowed and amazed by what you're doing. They're gonna want to look at you and get ideas. And there's a time to be flattered. There's a time to be pissed off. There's a time to take legal action, or at least threaten to take that first step because it costs a lot of money to get a lawyer involved. If you can avoid that great, but sometimes you need it. Sometimes you need it.
Lauren
So what do you think is different with this example compared to like, I don't know, like, ripping off a worksheet design.
Phil
So in this case, it was something that was sold. Yeah, it was my intellectual property that I passed, you know, or ownership passes on to the client. And it was something that was sold. And so it's all of the negative things that we've talked about laziness. I think it's vindictive.
Lauren
I think that breach of confidentiality.
Phil
Breach of confidentiality and contract. And the lack of communication, I think, is what makes me the most angry of all of it. It's not necessarily just breaking a contract, but it's doing something malicious. And then thinking that I'm never gonna find out about it. And also never admitting to it. So there were a number of lies told in that sequence. And that's, that's a whole story for another day, we'll get down.
Lauren:
That's how to deal with a psychopath. The follow up episode.
Phil:
It was a lie after lie after lie and just no admission to you know what, I did something wrong. Let me make this right. So that person no longer works with us. And you've taken the time to listen to us talk about at least two, or three stages of how to react in cases like this. Should you be flattered? Should you be pissed off? Should you take legal action? It's not just one or the other. It could be a combination of these things.
Lauren
Yeah, yeah. So I think if we're just sort of like, tie this episode up with a bow, the three steps of dealing with the copycat, first, ask yourself why. Then, consider that the behavior you ignore is the behavior you condone. Thank you Susan Salgado. And ask yourself what happens if I don't address this? So for example for like, like creative inspiration, what happens if you don't address it? Well, they might keep, kind of being strongly inspired by you. But is that really gonna rock the boat now, what happens if you don't address a website being stolen? That could actually be really, really bad and in fact, a ton of people in the long run. And then I guess the last thing is to ask yourself, what you can do or if you can even stop it from happening again. So I think in our case, we learned LastPass is critical because then we're not giving the keys to the whole kingdom to people and we can cut them off if needed.
Phil
I think contract. If you drafted years ago, making sure that you're still covered and actually paying you know, hiring a lawyer to make sure you're covered in those cases, it's always better to be proactive. It's like insurance. It's always better to be proactive than reactive. Always.
Lauren
Yeah. And I think as part of that exercise when you're hiring a lawyer to create like contractor agreements, or or even client contracts for you, like, allow yourself to go and think of the worst case scenario and anticipate it because worst case scenario, the worst that it doesn't happen, but best case scenario, you've already got that contingency plan ready to go and know what your rights are and what you can do in that situation.
Phil
There you go. Some ideas, some tools, some resources, some friendly reminders on how to deal with this. Has this happened to you? How's it that's what I want to know that's what we want to know. #brandtherapy to continue this conversation. I'm @philpallen.
Lauren
I'm @thelaurenmoore.
Phil
By the way if you've enjoyed this episode, make sure you leave us a review in the iTunes Store. That helps other people discover this podcast that we work very hard to create. And of course you'll see us back for our next episode. Until then I'm Phil. She's Lauren. This is Brand Therapy. Thanks for hanging out with us.
Lauren
See you next time.
